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W.B. Fishbowl
Age: 58
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 4256
Location: New York, New York, USA
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 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote: | Yeah, I would have to agree, there.
Still, imagine seeing "BUDD"-built cars clattering along the "Moit"! 
"NYO"
["BRIDGE-JAY"] |
It should be noted that when the top right front roll signs for R-16/32/38's were struck in spring 1969 (two sets - one from Transign with their own in-house type, the other from Translite with Standard Medium, all having a thin circle inside which the letters were put), "Em-Jay" was not among the routes they had. There was a difference in some of the order towards the end, and this was after two routes were discontinued. They were basically, in order (based on the Translite set):
A
AA
B
CC
D
E
EE
F
GG
HH
JJ*
KK
LL
M
MM**
N
QB
QJ
RR
SS
TT*
S
* Discontinued July 1, 1968 - why were they there anyway?
** Never actually started by the "Tee-Yay"; the color was to have been green; ironic, given the re-routing of the "Em" along Sixth through the Chrystie connection from Essex Street to Broadway-Lafayette after 2010.
Also, Transign's had TT come before SS.
But the JJ and TT notwithstanding, you suppose they knew that the "Moit" el was about to end when those roll signs were struck? |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 29777
Location: NEW JOISEY
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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W.B.:
Greatly appreciate your taking the time to post that extensive list of route designations; the "TT" ("Tee-Tee"), for whatever reason, always seems to stick in my mind (I know it was a VERY short-lived designation; WHY it was designated in the first place is TOTALLY beyond me)
Another long-gone designation that, again, for no apparent reason, sticks out in my mind is the ""KK" ("Kay-Kay")
The two double-letter* routes I knew best was the "AA", when my folks and I would ride up to the Planetarium and Museum of Natural History (back in the 60s, aboard prewar "Eye-En-Dee" cars), and, many years later, the "CC" ("See-See") then pretty much the domain of the "Artens", beginning in 1980.
Wondering now if there was ever any talk of using "double digits" for an "Eye-Are-Tee" route(s)..................
"NYO"
*In the first edition of "UNDER THE SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK" (Cudahy) there is a photo of two workers installing side roller signs into the car body of a "Brightliner" under construction (neither fellow is wearing any protective headgear!)
Sign boxes read (from top to bottom):
"AQUEDUCT RACE TRACK"
"BRIGHTON BEACH"
"A 8TH AVE EXPRESS
Also, on the next page, a train of the new cars, signed for the "TT"........
["TT"]
Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:03 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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W.B. Fishbowl
Age: 58
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 4256
Location: New York, New York, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote: | W.B.:
Greatly appreciate your taking the time to post that extensive list of route designations; the "TT" ("Tee-Tee"), for whatever reason, always seems to stick in my mind (I know it was a VERY short-lived designation; WHY it was designated in the first place is TOTALLY beyond me) |
It dated to 1960 when the "Tee-Yay" began lettering "Bee-Em-Tee" routes. It was a local whereas T ("Tee") was express. The T, of course, would be merged into the Sixth Avenue-Washington Heights "BB" ("Double-Bee") to create the B line after the first leg of the Chrystie Street connection opened on Nov. 26, 1967. At that point, TT was truncated to a West End shuttle, to live out its last months.
Based on drawings of the R-40 when it was in the planning stages, as on brochures of that "slanted" car, the "T" may well have been orange had it survived.
"T" signified West End, "Q" Brighton (QB = via the Manhattan Bridge, QT = via the Montague Street tunnel), "N" Sea Beach, and "R" (or as it was always known till 1985, "Double-Are") Fourth Avenue. On the Eastern Division side, "J," "JJ" and "KK" (the last-named originally) Nassau Street (no doubt skip-stop), "L" and "LL" 14th Street-Canarsie, "M" Myrtle-Chambers. Had R-32's run on the "KK" after the Sixth Avenue incarnation debuted in 1968, no doubt passengers would have been confused as to why it said "KK NASSAU ST." (As was actually on R-32 front left roll signs, on yard pics taken in 1964-65.)
That the "KK" later became "K" yet kept its PMS 300 Blue color, was most ironic in light of the 1985 renaming of the Eighth Avenue "AA" line (that trunk line by then having all its routes in that same color) as "K." |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 29777
Location: NEW JOISEY
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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W.B.:
Once again, I do thank you for sharing such fascinating and concise info, regarding old subway route designations/sign colors, etc. (Indeed, you KNOW what you're taking about, for certain!)
Earlier, I was browsing through "BUILDING THE INDEPENDENT SUBWAY" (Kramer), and was looking at the 1933 photo where Mayor O' Brien is posing alongside the opening day train at the 161st St-River Avenue station.
The side signs of car alongside "Hizzoner" read:
'CONCOURSE-205th ST."
"JAY STREET-BORO HALL"
"C 8th AVE. EXPRESS"
Speaking of destination signs, recall the "revolving metal plate" signs used on the "Bee-Em-Tee's" Multi-Sections.
This was also experimented with on the "Aitch & Em", and was also used on at least some of the prewar BSS cars in Philly...........
"NYO"
["16 8TH AV."]
Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 29777
Location: NEW JOISEY
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 29777
Location: NEW JOISEY
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:11 am Post subject: |
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W.B.:
I am sure that you can (as usual) provide interesting historical "snippets" on the different color roller curtains seen in the previous photos.......
"NYO"
["SUPER EXPRESS"] |
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W.B. Fishbowl
Age: 58
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 4256
Location: New York, New York, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Pic 3005's roll sign was definitely of the Transign lot, with their own font spelling out "EE." Same with Pic 3039. Pic 24395, however, was from Translite's set, with Standard Medium giving that away. Same with Pics 3010 and 3012.
Now for Pic 1889, on the museum "Arnines." Those were Transign roll signs, first struck for R-32's and then R-38's. Had R-32's (or, G-d forbid, R-38's) run on that route, passengers heading to the front or rear of a "Double-Kay" train would have seen the same thing - especially that route being listed as "NASSAU ST" despite it running on Sixth.
Pic 24551 looks like an add-on inserted in the 1967-68 period. And of course, the innate beauty of the 34th Street station of the Sixth Avenue line as originally tiled - totally ruined when it was remodeled.   |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 29777
Location: NEW JOISEY
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:03 am Post subject: |
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W.B.:
Great info; "in depth" and quite detailed, as I expected!
TOTALLY concur with you on the 34th Street (6th Avenue) station; why well enough could not be left alone, I have no idea......... 
"NYO"
["INDEPENDENT 6TH AVENUE SUBWAY"] |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 29777
Location: NEW JOISEY
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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W.B:
Check out this side roller curtain view (featuring a "Snoutliner") from 1970...........
https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?151441
(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
["ST. LOUIS CAR COMPANY"] |
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W.B. Fishbowl
Age: 58
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 4256
Location: New York, New York, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote: | W.B:
Check out this side roller curtain view (featuring a "Snoutliner") from 1970...........
https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?151441
(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
["ST. LOUIS CAR COMPANY"] |
From the very first roll signs produced for the "Snoutliner" by Translite, using their own font(s) instead of the "Tee-Yay's" Standard Medium. |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 29777
Location: NEW JOISEY
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| W.B. Fishbowl wrote: | | NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote: | W.B:
Check out this side roller curtain view (featuring a "Snoutliner") from 1970...........
https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?151441
(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
["ST. LOUIS CAR COMPANY"] |
From the very first roll signs produced for the "Snoutliner" by Translite, using their own font(s) instead of the "Tee-Yay's" Standard Medium. |
W.B.:
Makes sense, especially since the "Snoutliners" ("R-40") were indeed so radically different from anything else then plying the "Tee-Yay's" highly-burnished rails.......
"NYO"
["F CONEY ISLAND"] |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 29777
Location: NEW JOISEY
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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"Double-letter" route designations..........
Am wondering if there was any particular reason as to why the double-digit route designations were eliminated by the "Em-Tee-Yay"?
"NYO"
["GG BKLYN-QUEENS LOCAL"] |
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W.B. Fishbowl
Age: 58
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 4256
Location: New York, New York, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote: | "Double-letter" route designations..........
Am wondering if there was any particular reason as to why the double-digit route designations were eliminated by the "Em-Tee-Yay"?
"NYO"
["GG BKLYN-QUEENS LOCAL"] |
First of all, proposals to make all double-lettered routes single-letter were floated around as early as 1981 (as I saw on a news report, I think, on WCBS-TV; even then, they would have revived the 'K' name for what was then still 'AA'), but it wasn't until 1985 that it finally took effect. Apparently they thought it would simplify things. Now with the diamond squares for rush-hour services, with double-lettered routes it was hard to cram it into said space, unlike with the circles (or "bullets"). I have the 1979 map, and they had to squinch the CC (set in Helvetica Medium) horizontally for that to fit on the diamond. Same with QB.
And speaking of nothing in particular - I saw a scan of a part of the 1967 map. There was definitely evolution in the color changes over the years that 1967 color scheme was in effect, for comparing with vintage Pantone swatches of the era and the values of uncoated vs. coated (many colors look way different in either way), the colors on that initial map issued upon the opening of the Chrystie Street connection (and printed on uncoated paper stock) would appear to have been (with only the original route lineup mentioned):
- PMS 123 for 6, N, SS (Franklin Avenue-Prospect Park)
- PMS 165 for 1, 7, D, EE, JJ, SS (Ditmas Avenue-9th Avenue)
- PMS 185 for 2, HH, QB, RJ
- PMS 239 for 4, AA, F, MJ
- PMS 300 for A, TT, SS (Bowling Green-South Ferry)
- PMS 305 for 3, 8, E, M, NX, SS (Times Square-Grand Central)
- PMS 355 for CC, GG, RR, SS (initially Dyre Avenue-East 180th Street, applied after 7/1/68 to all shuttles)
- PMS (Process) Black for 5, B, LL, QJ, SS (145th-135th Street)
The turquoise routes are definitely a headache to find out in print. PMS 355 has always, to me, made more sense for the green-colored routes, as that would be used post-1979 for the Lexington Avenue trunk lines (not PMS 354 as mandated in the 1970 NYCTA Graphics Standards Manual; and speaking of which, PMS 312 which they claimed was for the turquoise routes, would come to be used for the JFK Express; meanwhile, the second Vignelli map from early 1973, after QJ became J and KK became K, looked like PMS 306 was used for the turquoise routes). Seeing the coated vs. uncoated values of the yellow lines, one could see why they would settle on PMS 130 come the 1970 manual.
But it also begs the question: What type of colors (no doubt different from Pantone's lot) would have been used to print (probably by silk screen method) those colored roll signs? |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 29777
Location: NEW JOISEY
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 9:29 am Post subject: |
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W.B.:
EXCELLENT post....man, you've got this topic nailed for sure; THANKS for taking the time to post!
IMHO, I always thought that the easiest signs to read (front and side curtains) were the traditional "white-on-black", which dated back to the wooden El car days.
Interesting, too, that the "Es-Eye-Are-Tee's" ancient "ME-1s" NEVER had destination signs (expect for metal "SOUTH BEACH" plates hung from the chains of the lead car)
HOWEVER, these cars DID receive destination signs (side only) when they were refurbished by the new "Tee-Yay" in 1954, using recycled metal plate sign boxes salvaged from scrapped El cars.
A long while back, I heard someone say that a few refurbished "Lo-Vs" (1950s) also received roller curtain boxes on the sides, but, to date, have never had any solid verification of this.
Recall, also, in the classic 1957 "I LOVE LUCY" episode, "LUCY & THE LOVING CUP", the subway car set (clearly inspired by BMT/IND equipment) featured illuminated Lexington Avenue signs that were black-on-white.
Then, too, recall the postwar "gunslot" eye-level side curtain boxes, used on the "R-10s" through the "R-15"s........
"NYO"
["LEXINGTON AVENUE EXPRESS"] |
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W.B. Fishbowl
Age: 58
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 4256
Location: New York, New York, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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I should also note that someone put up a slide show of the 1969 roll sign with Standard Medium font on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqx7dKOP1QA
Again, I wonder what were the colors these roll sign makers used. Notice two by-then defunct routes (JJ, TT) and one that, while proposed, was never put in service (MM - a forerunner of today's M Sixth Avenue-Myrtle Avenue line). |
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