BusTalk

[Mr. Linsky]

Some facts and figures on the Walt Disney World Transportation Company at Buena Vista Florida’s Disney World;

First the facts;

Disney boasts the largest ‘privately’ owned fleet to operate in one location in the world with more than 1000 drivers and over 230 buses.

The average Disney bus racks up 52,000 miles per year and, collectively, about 12 million.

The backbone of the fleet has been the GMC and TMC RTS with about 200 purchased both new and used between 1980 and 2003 and some reaching the 2 million mile mark in service.

The most popular models in the fleet are the RTS 06’s purchased between 1996 and 2002 with virtually all still in operation.

There have been two livery schemes with the first (or phase one) being a simple single brown stripe under the window belt over white paint followed by the present phase two scheme (see below) with the familiar ‘Disney’ trademark splashed over each side of the bus in pastel colors.

At the end of TMC production in 2003, the company opted for Nova Low Floors but experienced ongoing problems with false temperature sensors which led to a switch to Gillig equipment in 2004 which has now become the preferred bus for the Disney fleet.

Herewith is an all time roster of GMC and TMC RTS deliveries;

Note that unless otherwise specified, all buses are 40 feet in length, 96 inches in width with Detroit 6V-71 Diesel engines

GMC

Fleet #; 2701 to 2707 Model T80-604 Delivered October 1980
Fleet #; 2708 to 2712 Model T7W-604 Delivered October 1980 (35 feet in length)
Fleet #; 2713 to 2717 Model T7W-604 Delivered October 1981 (35 feet in length)
Fleet #; 2718 to 2720 Model T7W-604 Delivered August 1982 (35 feet in length)
Fleet #; 2721 to 2722 Model T80-604 Delivered August 1982
Fleet #; 2723 to 2726 Model T80-604 Delivered September 1982
Fleet #; 2727 to 2729 Model T80-604 Delivery Date Uknown
Fleet #; 2739 to 2738 Model T80-604 Delivered November 1983
Fleet #; 2739 to 2743 Model T80-606 Delivered March 1987
Fleet #, 2744 Model Unknown - Bought Used – Ex GM Test Bus (102 inches wide).
Fleet #; 2745 to 2780 Models Unknown – Bought Used from Dayton, Detroit and Miami in 1998 Dating from 1979 to 1981 – Reconditioned by Disney Shops (all 102 inches in width).

TMC

Fleet #; 4701 to 4714 Model T80-606 Delivered June 1988
Fleet #; 4715 to 4727 Model T80-606 Delivered October 1988
Fleet #; 4728 to 4731 Model T80-606 Delivered January 1989
Fleet #; 4732 to 4754 Model T80-606 Delivered March 1989
Fleet #; 4755 to 4758 Model T80-606 Delivered May 1989
Fleet #; 4759 to 4769 Model T80-606 Delivered March 1990
Fleet #; 4770 to 4780 Model T80-606 Delivered April 1990
Fleet #; 4781 to 4787 Model T80-606 Delivered August 1991
Fleet #; 4788 Model T80-606 Delivered September 1991
Fleet #; 4789 to 4798 Model T80-606 Delivered October 1992
Fleet #; 4799 to 4804 Model T80-606 Delivered 2003 Month Unknown
Fleet #; 4805 to 4814 Model T80-606 Delivered 2003 Month Unknown
Note; # 4801 to 4814 equipped with Detroit Diesel series 50 engines.

Photos below borrowed for educational purposes only.

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

22886

1989 TMC T80-606 # 4753


Gillig or Nova? (below)

[DE60LF]

[Mr. Linsky]

Pictured below is fleet number 1655 – a 1956 GMDD Coach Model TDM 4515 (ser# 0239) and one of 15 (1650 to 1664) delivered to Gray Coach Lines of Toronto, Ontario Canada in May of that year.

The TDM 4515 series was basically built on a 45 passenger city transit platform with mechanical shift, and featured all forward facing high back seats on platforms, parcel racks and drop sash windows.

Unlike their ‘PD’ series intercity cousins, the TDM’s did not have under floor storage bins. However, some operators, including Public Service of New Jersey utilized the dead space for the installation of after market Thermo-King air conditioning units.

These Air Suspension equipped suburban buses did not incorporate Thermo-Matic heating and ventilation systems, and instead featured a small intake opening beneath the windshield in place of the GM logo that admitted fresh air to a fan unit and was used as both a heater and defroster. Under seat heaters amidships augmented the forward system.

412 TDM 4515’s were built between 1953 and 1959 and a number have been preserved including three ex Greyhounds in the possession of Eastshore Lines of San Francisco as of 1989.

Gray Coach Lines was formed as a subsidiary of the Toronto Transportation Commission in 1927 to takeover and operate both local transit and suburban routes in the Toronto metropolitan area.

The company also operated intercity service with U.S. destinations including Buffalo and Niagara Falls New York and Greyhound affiliated connections to New York City.

TTC expanded transit and suburban operations in 1954 leaving Gray with only its intercity business until it was sold to Stagecoach Holdings of Scotland in 1990 which subsequently became part of Greyhound of Canada in 1992.

Also pictured below is a 1942 Ford Transit model 29-B operated by the company.

TDM 4515 photo courtesy of Melvin Bernero of GMOldLookBus.
Ford photo courtesy of Toronto Transit archive.

Notice the oddity of the window configuration on the 4515 which may be some form of added storm sash.

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[RTS_04]

[Mr. Linsky]

RTS_04,

Your comments regarding Disney are welcome and certainly will be taken under advisement.

My information was culled from a number of sources including; the Production Record of TMC RTS Buses (by A. J. Kristopans) in the March-April 1991 issue of Motor Coach Age, the GMC RTS Production lists at the Ohio Museum of Transportation and the two URL's listed below.

In regard to Disney's livery scheme phase one(pictured below); you are correct in that the single stripe was of GM design and was found on any number of operator's coaches including the first RTS's for Green Bus Lines - I never said it wasn't! (if I implied that it was specifically Disney, I apologize).

I will admit that some of the dates regarding the end of RTS production and the purchase of the Nova equipment are sketchy but the facts are accurate and the time frames approximate (or as close as I could figure them).

I do hope this clears some of the confusion, and your observations are greatly appreciated.

BTW; I have never had contact with many of the coaches and coach companies that I have featured in this forum, but in my avocation as a broker of vintage vehicles to the motion picture and television industry I have worked on a number of projects for Universal in Florida and am quite familiar with the Disney fleet going back to the late eighties.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

http://www.wdisneyw.co.uk/cmi10.html
http://disneyworldsecrets.net/DisneyBusFunFacts.html

[RTS_04]

[Mr. Linsky]

Pictured below is fleet number 1732 – a 1971 GM Coach Model TGH 3301 and one of two operating for Red Lion Bus Company of Red Lion, Pennsylvania but originally purchased by the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation of Virginia.

This 33 passenger ‘Baby New Look’ was an attempt on the part of GM to replace the 3500 series Old Looks in 1969 and continue servicing operators that required smaller buses but the effort proved to be unsuccessful and lasted only through 1971 with 287 built.

What makes the 30 foot long # 1732 below so unusual is the fact that it was one of only 13 3301’s equipped with a 351 cubic inch V-6 gasoline engine – the balance of production featuring a 478 Toro-Flow Diesel.

Although identical in looks to their larger 35 and 40 foot siblings, the 3301’s were entirely different buses in that they were considered light duty with the majority of their parts not being interchangeable with the larger coaches. This was the reverse of the Flxible 30 foot new looks that were built on the same heavy duty platforms as their high volume transits.

Interestingly, the 3300 models were never considered by GM to be a small equivalent of the heavy duty 45 and 5300’s. However, there were operators who bought them assuming that they were and that they would cost as little to maintain.

When these assumptions proved to be false, GM was severely criticized even though these buses gave long years of service when used as intended.

Number 1732 and a twin were originally purchased in July of 1971 by Colonial Williamsburg carrying fleet numbers B9 and B10 and were used to shuttle tourists in and around the historic restoration.

Eventually sold to Red Lion of southeastern Pennsylvania, these buses were assigned to regular transit service between Red Lion and the county seat at York.

Photo taken by J. C. Rebis, Jr., and courtesy of the Motor Bus Society.

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

23442

[Mr. Linsky]

Pictured below in a factory pose is fleet number 42 – a 1949 Mack Model C-37-GT (ser# 1084) and one of 32 delivered to Empresas Municipales de Bogota of Bogota Columbia between 1948 and 1949.

The 510 cubic inch block installed in most postwar Mack C-37’s was first developed in the early forties as a Diesel but was then converted to spark ignition to satisfy customers who preferred gasoline power in their smaller capacity buses and, while these engines were substantial and reliable, they gained a reputation as oil thirsty and gas guzzling.

But the engine problems were the least of Mack’s postwar troubles which began in mid 1946 with a labor dispute that lasted well into December of that year causing the cancellation of a number of large orders from equipment starved loyal customers who sought out GM in desperation with Green Bus Lines of Jamaica, NY as a leader of the pack!

It wasn’t until late 1947 that Mack saw light with its standard 45 seat C-45 models and by June of 1948 began to offer a smaller 33 and 37 passenger version designed for its lower volume trade.

Unfortunately, it was too little too late as many small operators had already also turned to GM for their very competitive 32 and 36 passenger lines.

Just over 300 C-33 and C-37 Mack’s were sold between 1948 and 1953 with the largest orders going to Niagara Frontier Transit System of Buffalo, New York and the Connecticut Company of Bridgeport.

Notice that the livery carried by # 42 below is almost identical in design to those of both Jamaica Buses and Surface Transportation.

Photo courtesy of the Motor Bus Society.

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Mr. Linsky]

Just as the Greyhound Corporation secured exclusive contracts for sightseer shuttle services within the fairgrounds of both the 1939/1940 and 1964/1965 World’s Fairs in New York, so did they in 1933 and 1934 at the Chicago ‘A Century of Progress’.

While their equipment for the New York ventures were of more conventional style their first undertaking in Chicago featured a tractor trailer arrangement as shown in the photos below.

Information on these vehicles is scant at best except to say that sixty were manufactured by GM, were fifty feet in length, carried up to sixty passengers with tractors undoubtedly of either Chevrolet or GMC origin.

Interestingly, Greyhound also operated ‘rapid transit’ routes within the fair as seen in map below.

A brief history of the Century of Progress;

On the fifth day of January 1928, A Century of Progress organized as an Illinois corporation, not for pecuniary profit, having as its charter purpose, "the holding of a World's Fair in Chicago in the year 1933." The international character of the Exposition is indicated by the fact that a joint resolution of Congress was approved authorizing the President to invite the nations of the world to participate. An enabling act of the Illinois legislature permitted the Exposition to be held on new-made state park land lying along Lake Michigan, opposite the heart of the city.

Photos borrowed from various Chicago World’s Fair websites for educational purposes only.

Mr.Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Mr. Linsky]

Pictured below is a late 1920's Fordson Bus which appears to be restored in this recently taken shot at an auto show.

Fordson, famous for both farm equipment and trucks, was and may still be Ford Motor Company's British manufacturing arm based in Dagenham England which is a suburb of London.

Before 1934 and the development of a city transit bus, Ford's only foray into passenger carriers came about in 1932 and were in the form of school buses built on Ford frames by the Union City All-Steel Body Company.

When the need arose for any type of bus before that time Ford called upon its English cousins who had already been building transit coaches for a number of years.

In this case the pictured bus was built on a long wheelbase Ford Model 'A' chassis and specially equipped with left hand drive for U.S. operation.

Its purpose was to shuttle dignitaries the short distance between Ford's private airfield outside Dearborn Michigan and various company facilities.

Photo courtesy of Dave's Classic Limousines.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

23965

[Mr. Linsky]

Through a combined effort of the City of Montgomery, Alabama and the Federal Transit Administration, the Montgomery Area Transit System now has a new “Old Look” bus complementing its fleet.

The bus is a 1950s era GM TDH 3612 that has been fully restored to operating status and resembles the coaches that were in service in Montgomery during the early 50s. The bus is completely functional and meets all Americans with Disabilities Act requirements

This bus provides several different services for the transit system not the least of which being its historical presence. On special occasions it circulates downtown for shoppers, operates fixed regular runs, and will participate in a developing school outreach program.

As to whether or not this particular unit was part of an original order for seven 3612’s placed by the then Montgomery City Lines, Inc. is open to debate because the writer’s source failed to include this information.

Pictured below is the amazing finished product as well as shots taken during various phases of the restoration.

The Montgomery City Lines, Inc. was owned by the City of Montgomery as is its successor Montgomery Area Transit System which is operated under contract by First Transit Group, Inc. (they sure get around!).

Photographs courtesy of MATS.

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

24055




[img]

[Cyberider]

Cute bus and interesting photos, Mr. Linsky. Can't say I'm enthusiastic about butchering it to make it ADA-compliant, however!

[Mr. Linsky]

Dave,

I know what you mean and I agree.

The only thing that I think justifies what they did is the fact that they have saved a piece of history which otherwise would have been fed to the crusher!

At least it's not a mobile home with plywood covering the windows and padlock hasps on the doors!

Actually, the disabilities door fits very well and when it's closed you really don't see it.

I guess that we can only hope that when MATS is finished with it some industrious collector will undo the modifications.

In examining the pictures more closely I noticed in photo # 5 (the completed body ready for paint) that there is no opening above the destination sign for a Thermo-Matic intake and yet the finished restoration shows one (obviously a dummy) complete with the wrong ICC markers!

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Cyberider]

Interesting observation, Mr. Linsky!

[Mr. Linsky]

Dave,

In the above post I had mentioned that it apeared as though the restored Montgomery 3612 originally had no Thermo-Matic system and thus no intake over the windshield.

I found a 'before' picture which positively confirms what I suspected!

Some of our fellow enthusiasts are unaware of the fact that a goodly number of second generation or paired window Old Looks came originally without Thermo-Matic systems.

I have also attached some more interesting shots of the restoration.

Photos courtesy of MATS.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

As it Appeared Before Restoration

Original Interior

Wheelchair Door Closed

The Six of the 6-71

Restored Driver's Compartment