BusTalk

[Mr. Linsky]

John,

I've done the best that can be done (with my equipment) to enlarge that part of the photo in question.

Other than the fact that it appears to be a late 20's 'conventional', I cannot make even an educated guess as to the make and operator.

However, I have come up with some interesting tidbits of information on B & O's Yellow Model Y's;

There were 34 built for the B & O Train Connection service operated by Fifth Avenue Coach and 'Public Service' (according to the September/October 1990 Motor Coach Age devoted to early Yellows).

The 'Public Service' would have to have been 'New Jersey' and the bus in the picture looks a bit like NJPS livery although that's a far out speculation!

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L"......

Yet again, you provide us with MORE than "food for thought".......more like "BANQUET"!

Most interesting trivia, and, I do thank you for the time spent with this vintage photo!

IF that bus was indeed a B&O coach, well, no mystery involved!

BUT.......if that hasd been (for argument's sake) a PS coach.....WHAT was it doing trainside at Jersey City?

Obviously, the bus had to be sitting on the driveway provided for the B&O buses (this was down by removing tracks #2 and #3, and paving over the trackbed, enabling the buses to drive straight through the station headhouse to the ferry slips.

After B&O passenger service to JC ended in 1958, the former bus roadway was used for car parking, as well as for New York newspaper trucks, arriving from Liberty St. via ferry.

Now, back to that "mystery" bus.

IF indeed it were a PS bus, the only logical explanation I could come up with, would be that some PS charter passengers making a B&O connection, were doing so directly at trainside.

Again, this is only a wildcard guess, here.......

John

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Just for the heck of it, I'm posting this link here, depicting a PS YELLOW "Z", of 1930 vintage (OK, it ain't a "Y"!)

Mr. "L" remarked that the "mystery" coach seemed to have a livery (what you could make out of it) that reminded him of the PS colors of that era.

This "deluxe" scheme was also used on refurbished PS streetcars back then (late 20's/early 30's).

http://www.davemackey.com/psct/2841.html

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

All:

Earlier, I'd mentioned the train connection bus service used in conjunction with CNJ's crack "BLUE COMET", which ran between Jersey City and Atlantic City.

The CNJ advertised "the latest and most luxurious of motor coaches", complete with BLUE COMET paint and logos.

Though the BLUE COMET bus (YELLOW "Y") wore the CNJ's "COMET" colors, the service was operated by Public Service.

This service made connections with the train at Hammonton, and, as aforementioned, operated under contract for the CNJ by PS.

A photo of this bus (this was but a one-coach operation, despite all the hoopla!) in "THE UNIQUE NEW YORK & LONG BRANCH" (Audio-Visual Designs, 1985) shows the same type of coach seen in the vintage 42nd St. B&O photo I came across earlier; same huge signbox is mounted on the roof above the windshield.

Sign reads: "NEW JERSEY CENTRAL TRAIN CONNECTION".

Smaller sign just below reads: "BRIDGETON".

Later on, as BLUE COMET patronage began to fall off, "JOLLY TAR TRAIL" buses, which, previously, only made connections with lesser CNJ trains, now made direct connections with the "COMET" at Lakewood, for points on CNJ's Barnegat Branch.

Though it would have made sense to see a CNJ-operated bus on CNJ property, it certainly would make you scratch your head all the more wondering WHY this bus was trainside at Jersey City, instead of making its train connection down south Jersey, had the latest "mystery" bus had indeed been a CNJ coach?

Again, I'm only speculating and pulling wildcards out of my hat (size 7)......<G>

John

[Mr. Linsky]

I am officially anointing the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad as a 'guest' private bus operator in New York City.

To add to our album of images of B & O 'Train Connection' White Model 1136's we see two at the CNJ Terminal in Jersey City awaiting passengers to alight the train for the trip to Manhattan via the Holland Tunnel (the bus rides were included in the train fare).

It might be interesting to note that the B & O had even a greater presence in New York City in operating the Staten Island Railroad (now a division of the MTA) from long before the turn of the twentieth century into modern times.

Photo courtesy of J. Roborecky – Trainnet)

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

[HwyHaulier]

John - Mr 'L' -

Here is where it gets fun! For myself, I have little enthusiasm for old photos which are much too grainy, poorly exposed,
or whatever, and then expect to arrive at reliable conjecture. In the trainside C N J photo, again, a known date would help.

Time Line vital. Recall B & O trains into Jersey City in 1926. Also, should be considered? C N J evidently had some, select,
joint service arrangements with P S N J, for some of its own local problems, prior B & O date of 1926...

........................Vern......................

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L"/Vern..........

Quite easily, gentlemen, this is indeed a topic that has MORE than enough meat on its bones!

It's clearly become of of these fascinating historical topics, where, "the deeper one delves, the more treasures are to be found"!<G>

B&O's SIRT........aaahhh, Mom still jokes that we probably rode it more times than many Staten Islanders did, back in the day!

With its ancient electrics, charming wooden depots, and numerous grade crossings, it was more like a Midwest interurban than a New York rapid transit operation, sans its distinctive "New Yawk" equipment!

Today, it's just another branch of the MTA (the B&O relinquished it in 1971), with bland, boring, humdrum equipment.

Every bit of charm has been leached from this unique line, since the MTA takeover, 40 years ago.

Progress, bah!

The B&O purchased the SIRT in 1899; the municipal ferries (not owned by the City until 1905) were lettered for the SIRT.

The "Best & Only", then operating into Jersey City via the CNJ, took advantage of its control of the SIRT to bring the ferries of one of its subsidiaries, (the CNJ), into the Whitehall St. terminal.

Though this arrangement was of longer duration than the CNJ's crossing to Liberty St., it had the advantage of direct access (via covered passageways) to the four elevated lines then terminating at White hall St. (South Ferry).

This arrangement came to an end in 1901, when one of the CNJ boats, the "MAUCH CHUNK", rammed into the SIRT's "NORTHFIELD" just as she was pulling out of Whitehall St.

The "NORTHFIELD" sank within minutes, though most of her 995 passenger scrambled to safety by climbing aboard nearby tugs and scows.

Five passengers lost their lives, all of them aboard the "NORTHFIELD".

The City government then demanded that B&O relinquish the ferries, was was thereafter forbidden from using the Whitehall terminal.

In 1925, the SIRT's three lines were electrified, and new steel MU cars were purchased, similiar to BMT cars.

This was done in anticipattion of new tunnels being dug under the Narrows, linking up the SIRT with BMT's 4th Avenue subway line, thereby allowing SIRT commuters a one-seat ride into Manhattan.

Of course, this grand scheme was never carried out, although tunnel pockets for the proposed line to Staten Island were built and can still be seen to this day near the BMT's 59th St. (Brooklyn) station.

Ahhhh, the best laid plans of mice and men......

John

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Comprehensive reading on the B&O's operations in the greater NY/NJ area.

Without a doubt, the B&O was clearly in the MAJOR legues, back in the day!

Much interesting reading on the SIRT operatins as well.

The SIRT yards at Arlington, (Staten Island) for example, once boasted a 2,000 car capacity!

http://jcrhs.org/B&O.html

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

All:

One cannot help but wonder about the B&O bus services had not the B&O been granted direct access to Manhattan via the PRR.

If the B&O simply continued to operated to Jersey City via the CNJ, would the bus service even have been considered?

Given the B&O's noteworthy attention to treating its customers right, I would not at all have been surprised had the B&O started up the train-connection motor coach service, if only as a passenger "courtesy".

The CNJ's ferries were, of course, most instrumental in this operation.

Had the buses not used the ferries, this would have involved a lengthy, convulted routing via local Jersey City streets to the Holland Tunnel, the nearest vehicular tube to the CNJ terminal.

Remember, too, that the Lincoln Tunnel would not have been an option until 1937.

Not only that, but, think of the great distance seperating the CNJ's waterfront depot and the Lincoln.

The B&O, without a doubt, truly had the situation well in hand, operating its motor coach connection services most efficiently for over 30 years, until all B&O service east of DC came to an end in 1958.

Sic Transit Gloria.

John

[Mr. Linsky]

To continue our discussion on the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad bus service to Manhattan I add the interesting attachment showing the Jersey City Rail Station some time in the late twenties with B & O Connection buses at the ready for passengers heading to the city.

This would have been at a time almost immediately after the B & O had been evicted from Penn Station in Manhattan by the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1926.

While B & O's later generations of connection buses were based on 'White' chassis, the radiator frames on the pictured buses seem to lean toward a 'Yellow' Model 'Y' but I'll have to look further to confirm that.

Photo courtesy of eBay.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

[HwyHaulier]

Mr 'L' -

See TH 24 FEB, here, from your faithful correspondent.
B & O Jersey City coaches recalled...

.................Vern......................

[Mr. Linsky]

Vern,

I guess I'm not so bad at what I do after all!

I completely forgot about the facts and went with my seeming expertise in such matters (and was right!).

It doesn't make up for all my mistakes but it sure helps!

Thanks,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L":

OUTSTANDING old photo.....many thanks for sharing this rare and historic view!

As I had mentioned earlier, the CNJ removed tracks #'s 2 and 3 at the Jersey City Terminal, and paved over the trackbed, in anticipation of the startup of B&O bus service.

Therse particular tracks were removed, because, in doing so, the buses could move in a straight line directly through the terminal headhouse and onto a waiting ferryboat.

After the cessation of B&O service to New York via the CNJ in 1958, the former bus area was turned into parking for CNJ employees and visitors.

A lifetime ago......

John

[Rob]

Just as a tidbit to narrow you time line. The B&O diesel #1415 appears to be the first EMC (GM) Model E-7 built in Feb. 1945. So the photo was not taken prior to that.

Rob

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]