BusTalk

[Mr. Linsky]

Here's just a bit of trivia about the B & O's 'Train Connection' service in New York;

Since its inception in 1926, B & O contracted with Fifth Avenue Coach Company's Gray Line Motor Tours subsidiary to operate the buses.

FACCO seemed to have their fingers in a lot of pies!

BTW; this is a great thread - keep it up!

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L".......

Agreed!

This IS a most interesting topic, without a doubt!

And, it wasn't until AFTER I started the thread, that I discovered the old, old photo of the B&O buses at the 42nd St. station!

Elegance personified!

Did not know about Fifth Avenue Coach/Gray Line being involved; not surprised, though, as FACCO was indeed dang near as close to royalty in the bus world as you could get, way back when!

The B&O train connection bus service came about when the road was evicted from Pennsylvania Station in 1926. It was then that the B&O had to revive the old routing to Jersey City, via the CNJ.

One of the reasons that the B&O buses stopped at so many Manhattan hotels was so that their patrons would not have to utilize subways, elevateds, or taxis as part of their journeys, a distinct advantage over the PRR.

In "BALTIMORE & OHIO RAILROAD" (Railroad Color History) ,by Kirk Reynolds and Dave Oroszi, there is a beautiful reproduction (in color) of a circa-1940 B&O timetable, featuring a front-end view of one of the 1936 WHITES.

Across the bottom cover it reads:

"BETWEEN TRAINSIDE AND THE METROPOLIS VIA STREAMLINED MOTOR COACHES".

Bus sports classic NJ plate: "037-064".

John

BTW:

I had also read awhile ago that, after the B&O abandoned passenger service to Jersey City in 1958, the remaining passenger equipment at CNJ's Jersey City yards were assembled into several lengthy trains, to be "brought home".

Man, I'd give ANYTHING to go back in time and see that move......just imagine the classic B&O equipment in those trains!

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Just some additional "train connection bus trivia":

Until 1966, when it abandoned all commuter service, the NYS&W ("Susie Q") also operated trans-Hudson, train-connection buses, but, this was a quite "lowly" operation, when compared to glamorous old B&O bus era, as this service was only for NYS&W commuters, and used leased PS coaches.

There was a 1940's photo in BUS WORLD ages ago, showing several leased PS rear-engined YELLOWS, lettered "SUSQUEHANNA TRANSFER", loading commuters at the Manhattan station, near TSQ.

These buses served Midtown (via the Lincoln Tunnel), and transported rail commuters to the modest "SUSQUEHANNA TRANSFER" depot, in the shadow of the helix leading to the Lincoln Tunnel. Here, commuters boarded their trains.

After the PABT opened, these buses began using the new facility (Platform #51), until the end of all NYS&W passenger service in 1966.

John

[Mr. Linsky]

John,

There's a beautiful photo of one of the 'ultra modified' B & O White 684's that replaced the conventional Yellow Type Y's in 1937 on page 19 of the November/December 1982 Motor Coach Age (devoted entirely to the history of White) which, if I fail to find something already on the Net, I will have scanned shortly.

It is in the caption of the image that the details on the relationship with FACCO come out.

Unfortunately, the article gives no clue as to who built the custom bodies reminiscent of railroad cars which I'm certain White did not - possibly Bender - a well known specialist right in White's hometown of Cleveland.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L":

From the very first time I saw one of those strange-looking WHITES (on a MARK I rail video about the CNJ ), I was totally stumped as to the make, as I'd NEVER seen anything like that before!

Now, thanks to you, I know they were WHITES, but, as to who built the bodies.....well....you and I are BOTH still scratching our heads!

The CLOSEST I've ever seen any bus of that era coming even remotely close to these WHITES would be a GAR WOOD.

You mentioned some resemblence of these unusual buses to rail cars; recall the sleek ACF-built streamliners, such as were used by the NYS&W in commuter service.

These cars, however, entered service in 1940, four years after the new WHITES went into service for the B&O.

In any event, too bad not one of these most unusual buses was set aside for preservation!

John

BTW:

I'm now wondering where the B&O's buses were stored and maintained, between runs?

NYC?

NJ?

Possibly at a Gray Line facility?

Yet another interesting little "head scratcher".......

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

All:

On this page dedicated to BENDER-bodied buses, it states (from a 1936 press release):

".......the new 'Bender De Luxe' line of coach bodies includes types for city and intercity bus service......"

With this in mind, could the 1936 B&O coaches have utilized these BENDER bodies?

Mr. "L" might have been pretty much on the mark, if this had been the case........

John

http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/b/bender/bender.htm

[HwyHaulier]

John - Mr 'L' -

I thought we "established it on the record" some time back: B & O "Train Connection" Coaches of 1936 relied
on BENDER bodies... (I'll check some notes around here.)

Yes, the B & O service very convenient for its riders, as the coaches ran directly to several hotels of choice. The
"downside"? B & O could not match the frequency of competing, P R R schedules.

Herb Harwood provided this advice, four years back. Apparently, also mentioned in his Royal Blue Line work...

Fleet 1 -- 32 Yellow Coach Y, built 1926 and 1929.

Fleet 2 -- 30 White 684 with special streamlined Bender bodies designed by Otto Kuhler, built 1936-37

Fleet 3 - 30 White 1136, built 1949-51, with conventional-looking but supposedly special bodies.

...................Vern..................

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Vern.......

Appreciate additional input and info!

Recall, too, our discussion elsewhere, regarding a circa-1940 WHITE 805 van, used in 1949's "MIGHTY JOE YOUNG",,,,,,a WHITE chassis......but, utilizing a body that clearly was by another manufacturer......this stuff can get QUITE interesting, indeed!

B&O's coaches, surely, racked up quite a bit of "city mileage" throughout their service lives, with "highway" running out of the picture!

Brooklyn-bound coaches have been on my mind as of late......how did these buses gain access to that borough?

Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel?

Brooklyn, Williamsburg, Manhattan bridges?

The tunnel would be just a few minutes south of the CNJ's Liberty St. ferry terminal

Also, as I mentioned earlier, I'm hoping our ever-vigilant historian Mr. "L" can possibly tell us where said coaches were stored/maintained?

Possibly at a local GRAY LINE cacility?

John

[HwyHaulier]

John -

I'm of a mind to favor a Brooklyn - Battery Tunnel routing on the B & O services. Merely an intuited observation here.
Any wish to fact check, OK!

B & O Coach, Dispatch and Equipment domicile points? The record being, earliest "outsourcing" to FACCO, later to
GRAY LINE. It implies Manhattan sites, in any case. Bear in mind, for competitive reasons, B & O may have been
reluctant to rely upon the Sunnyside - Long Island City - Penna. GL complex, for obvious reasons...

.......................Vern......................

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Vern.......

Yep, yours truly was also leaning more towards the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel for Brooklyn-bound B&O coaches; to this day, these tubes serve heavy bus traffic during rush-hours, including Staten Island expresses (these buses also use the Verranzano-Narrows Bridge).

Storage/maintainence facilities?

Manhattan location would indeed make sense, for several reasons.

I once thought of a Jersey City location, near to the CNJ's terminal.

This location, indeed, would have made sense, especially given the fact that the buses had to venture into said area anyway, to start/complete their runs......

John

[Hart Bus]

I am a member of the Shoreline Trolley Museum in East Haven/ Branford CT. I am part of a crew that is trying to preserve (not yet restore) SIRT car 388 built in 1925.

Staten Island Rapid Transit was a subsidiary of the B&O. If my memory is correct (very very doubtful!) B&O was unsuccessful against the Pennsy to try to gain access to NYC. I wonder if this system of bus routes was an alternative to the denial.

[HwyHaulier]

John -

Brooklyn - Battery Tunnel routing would have run the coaches through Downtown Manhattan, too. FWIW.
I have no idea how intense the rivalry between B & O and P R R. There would have been much reason to
run the area with the coaches, to appeal to possible riders...

Equipment Domicile? It favors the B & O operators would have been on same Dispatch Board otherwise
used by FACCO or GRAY LINE? It works against possibility of Jersey City domicile?

Hart Bus: Indeed! B & O ran into P R R - 34th St in WWI Era, and by directive of USRA. The service ended
in 1926, with B & O subsequently based at C N J - Jersey City. It is well to consider the close relationships
between B & O - C N J - RDG...

..........................Vern.....................

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

All:

Here's an "ol'-timey" picture I dug out of my files, which I had forgotten about until we started discussing the B&O train-connection buses.

This old photo (early/mid-30's) was taken at the CNJ's old Jersey City terminal, which was shut down in 1967.

Look very closely on the left, through the signal bridge girders.

That might just be a B&O bus......

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cnj/cnj-s779afm.jpg