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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: Why no New Flyer C60LF(R)? |
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Hello. I would like to know why New Flyer does not intend on producing a C60LF or C60LFR. While some transit authorites believe that CNG articulated buses have safety flaws, the sales of the NABI 60-BRT (which of a majority are CNG-powered) would seem to suggest otherwise. Many have claimed that the reason for Neoplan's demise was due to their CNG-powered AN460 articulated bus. NABI is actually doing well on the 60-BRT CNG.
Even though the market for diesel-electric (and gasoline-electric) buses is overtaking the CNG market, there will always be some exceptions.
Speaking of this, I wonder if New Flyer has a GE60LF or GE60LFR in the works. A problem with a GE60LF would be that gasoline engines by design produce less torque than diesel engines. Some transit authorities in southern California might show interest in a GE60LF, though. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Well, does anyone have an idea? |
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ripta42 Site Admin
Age: 45 Joined: 15 Apr 2007 Posts: 1035 Location: Pawtucket, RI / Woburn, MA
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Response from New Flyer:
Quote: | The C60LF is a tricky issue. While there is some limited support for
that type of vehicle, hybrid buses (particularly with new 2007 engines),
reduce emissions well-below the level of CNG while offering better fuel
efficiency. CNG is great in areas that have the infrastructure as it
reduces the dependency on oil, but the demand for a 60-foot CNG is
limited, and so we are focusing on other opportunities at this time.
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tovinman
Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 24
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Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: C60LF |
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Problem with CNG buses is the fuel piping from the tanks on the front section to the rear of the coach - nobody makes a flexible CNG-compliant hose capable of bending repeatedly over and over and over and so far no authority is willing to certify such a usage. |
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RailBus63 Moderator
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 1063
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Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:52 am Post subject: |
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Neoplan did build CNG articulateds for Boston's MBTA:
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The Port of Authority
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 118 Location: Hong Kong
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Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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And NABI makes CNG-powered 60-BRTs (and 65-BRTs soon, as well.)
I also saw a number of CNG articulated buses in China, although those are probably held to lower standards than our coaches.
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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The Port of Authority wrote: | And NABI makes CNG-powered 60-BRTs (and 65-BRTs soon, as well.)
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What is suprising is that the majority of NABI 60-BRTs produced are CNG-powered. In fact, NABI has yet to recieve any orders for the 60-BRT diesel-electric hybrid. New Flyer has been dominating the diesel-electric hybrid artic market with the DE60LF. I have heard many bad things about the NABI 60-BRT, but since they are the only current maker of CNG articulated buses, they are basically the only option for TAs dependent on CNG. Maybe if Orion steps into the CNG artic market, TA's could have more options, however, for most of North America, diesel-electric hybrids are becoming the alternative technology of choice. Only in southern California is where CNG buses dominate.
ABQ RIDE once intended to have an all-CNG fleet. While ABQ RIDE's first CNG buses, the Neoplan AN440s, work rather well, the Thomas SLF200s that were introduced in 2001 have been very problematic, and because of this, there have been no orders for CNG buses ever since. ABQ RIDE is now going the diesel-electric hybrid route, starting with the New Flyer DE60LFs delivered in 2004 and early 2007, and the New Flyer DE40LFRs that are currently being delievered. |
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RailBus63 Moderator
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 1063
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: |
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I would be surprised if Orion offers a CNG version of its articulated bus - I expect it will offer clean-diesel and hybrid as New Flyer does. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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I actually wonder, do LNG-powered articulated buses exist? The LNG market is very small. In fact, I haven't heard of any orders for LNG buses from New Flyer in over a year.
Perhpas a gasoline-electric hybrid articulated bus may be a safer option than CNG for some TAs who refuse to purchase diesel or diesel-electric buses. However, as I stated earlier, a gasoline engine may not provide sufficient torque for an artic, however, with the hybrid technology available, it could perhaps work. The GE40LF uses a Ford Triton V10 engine in tandem with the ISE-Siemens ThunderVolt series hybrid system. |
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tovinman
Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 24
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: C60LFr |
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I guess I should point out, further to what I stated before, that there has never been a CNG articulated built with a roof-mounted tank assembly; the lack of a suitable flexible fuel line being NFI's reason for not doing so.
I think that one or two units were built with underfloor tanks, but they were C60HFs and the tanks had to be mounted under the rear section; it can't be done on lowfloors. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: C60LFr |
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tovinman wrote: | I guess I should point out, further to what I stated before, that there has never been a CNG articulated built with a roof-mounted tank assembly; the lack of a suitable flexible fuel line being NFI's reason for not doing so.
I think that one or two units were built with underfloor tanks, but they were C60HFs and the tanks had to be mounted under the rear section; it can't be done on lowfloors. |
Speaking of this, why doesn't NABI realize that problem? The 60-BRT is a low floor, so the fuel tanks must be roof mounted.
I am not saying New Flyer's development team is more educated. As I stated earlier, New Flyer states that the costs and development are better spent on improving the DE60LF rather than producing a C60LF, as the market for a CNG artic is too small in the United States/Canada.
I would probably agree that if Orion enters the artic market, it will be only offered in diesel and diesel-electric hybrid models. As for Gillig, if they enter the artic market, it will probably be an articulated version of the Gillig Advantage BRT, and would also be only offered in diesel or diesel-electric technology. Gillig has never produced CNG buses as a factory option, however, they did experiment with an LNG-powered Phantom in 1992. Some TAs have retrofitted their Gillig Phantoms with CNG or LNG, though. |
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Q65A
Age: 66 Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 1773 Location: Central NJ
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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The MTA ran a study on Orion VII's (HEV's based at MCH and CNG's based at WF), and they claimed that the HEV's had lower costs per mile overall than the CNG's.
The main differences as I recall were in brake lining costs.
It appears that the regenerative braking on an HEV is more efficient at retarding than a transmission retarder on a CNG.
Another issue involved exhaust emissions; perhaps the fact that an HEV uses a relatively small diesel engine helps reduce overall emissions, while a CNG usually uses a larger displacement engine.
Finally, the CNG's do require specialized physical plant for refueling, while hybrids can be used wherever conventional diesels are refuelled.
I think that I had posted a link to this article elsewhere @ BT3, but I don't recall exactly where.
That said, perhaps CNG buses categorically (both artics and single units) have cost structures that are not as favorable as that of hybrids (once you get past the high initial purchase price of an HEV). |
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Q65A
Age: 66 Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 1773 Location: Central NJ
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RailBus63 Moderator
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 1063
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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Boston's MBTA built two new garages for CNG buses (Arborway and Southampton) and rebuilt one older garage (Cabot), but the cost of retrofitting other older facilities was noted when the Authority decided to embrace clean-diesel technology instead of natural gas for future bus purchases. |
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