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Queens Transit Company History
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Q65A



Age: 66
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 1764
Location: Central NJ

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:40 pm    Post subject: Queens Transit Company History Reply with quote

I had posted the following article on BTN sometime in 2006:

From New York City Transit Buses 1945-1975 Photo Archive (2005, Guy Martin, Iconografix; pp. 116-117):

“Like other Queens bus corporations, Queens Transit and its subsidiary Steinway Transit trace their history to streetcar routes. In 1932 the New York and Queens County Railway was succeeded by the New York and Queens County Transit Corp. Buses from the newly-formed Queens-Nassau Transit Corp. replaced streetcars in 1937. Likewise, the Steinway Railway converted to buses in 1938, operating under the name Steinway Transit.

Queens-Nassau Transit began with a fleet of new 41-passenger ACF H-16-S buses numbered 20 through 74. One additional ACF, #81, arrived in 1942.
In a departure for New York operators that were standardizing on GM or Mack buses in the postwar era, Queens-Nassau bought 10 new ACF-Brills in 1947. GM diesels didn’t arrive until October 1951 when 30 TDH-4509s were purchased. These were supplemented by 20 51-passenger TDH-5104s in October 1952, followed by 20 more TDH-5106s in September 1954.

Queens-Nassau Transit Lines operated from their garage, a former carbarn, in Woodside, Queens. In 1957, a new garage was built on 28th Ave. in College Point, Queens. When Queens-Nassau Transit Lines moved into its new headquarters on August 23, 1957, it changed its name to Queens Transit Corp.

By the 1960’s, Queens Transit operated all GM buses. A delivery of 25 new-look TDH-5302s, numbered 901 through 925, in April and May of 1960, displaced the last of the ACF-Brills. Three deliveries totaling 20 96-inch TDH-5304s, numbered 101 through 120, were received in 1963-64. Thirty GM T6H-5306As, numbered 146 through 175, were received in four deliveries between 1969 and 1971. Fifty-five T8H-5308s, numbered 716 through 770, completed the GM roster in 1975-76.

Initially, the company was granted franchises by the city to operate four routes in central and western Queens. The Q-25/34 and Q-65 provided parallel service between 160th St. and Jamaica Ave., Jamaica, and different neighborhoods in College Point via Flushing. The 25/34 operated via Parsons Blvd., while the Q-65 ran primarily along 164th St. The Q-66 was a straight run along Northern Blvd. from Flushing to Woodside. The Q-67 was a serpentine route from Long Island City to Maspeth and Middle Village. In 1951, a new franchise was granted for the Q-65A, a short but lucrative route connecting the Q-65 at 164th St. and Jewel Ave. to the IND subway at Queens Blvd. Service was inaugurated on November 1 of that year.
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:13 pm    Post subject: '5106 Question for Q65A Reply with quote

Bob,

In reference to the thirty five GM TDH 5106's numbered 821 to 840 and 856 to 871 delivered to Queens Transit in several orders between 1954 and 1959;

Do you happen to know what width they were?

The records of OMT don't specify this point, and I am trying to ascertain the widths of a Green Line order (#151 to 160) from the same group.

Would appreciate your expertise (that's why we call you the 'orange bus man') only kidding!

Thanks.

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York
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Mr RT




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why did Queens-Nassau order AFCs vs. GM ?
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Q65A



Age: 66
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: '5106 Question for Q65A Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
Bob,

In reference to the thirty five GM TDH 5106's numbered 821 to 840 and 856 to 871 delivered to Queens Transit in several orders between 1954 and 1959;

Do you happen to know what width they were?

The records of OMT don't specify this point, and I am trying to ascertain the widths of a Green Line order (#151 to 160) from the same group.

The TDH-5106' s were 96" wide. The corresponding GM air ride "wide-body" of the same era was the TDH-5105, which was the biggest selling model in the GM Old Look family. The BOT actually was a real pioneer in the use of wide transits; they had 500 TDH-4510's (Pacific Electric had a single TDH-4510, but ironically it is appearently the sole survivor of that model.) Curiously, NYC operators did not buy 5105's as new buses. This may be due in part ot the fact that several NYC private bus lines (GBL and QNTL included) bought a fair number of TDH-5104's in prior years, while the BOT had a large fleet of fairly new 4510's and 5101's. QTC didn't start buying 102"-wide buses until the New Look era, when they bought a fleet of TDH-5301's.
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:48 pm    Post subject: 'Queens Nassua ACF's' Reply with quote

Mr RT wrote:
Why did Queens-Nassau order AFCs vs. GM ?


Mr. RT,

At the time that Queens-Nassau ordered ACF's, 'Yellow Coach' (GM) had really not taken off in the business yet (but they were working on it!), and their only basic customer in the New York metropolitan area was the 'Omnibus Corporation' (and we know who a principal party in that company was!).

It was because of the tiein with GM and the fact that the Omnibus Corporation had its sights set on gobbling up every route in the city (they wiped out Green Bus Lines in 1933) that the other PBL's shied away from anything with the 'Yellow' name.

A better question would have been; why didn't Queens-Nassau order Macks?

Mack was preeminent in the northeast at the time especially with Green Line that had well over 200 of them on the property bewteen 1933 and 1946.

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica and Arverne, New York
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: '5106 Question for Q65A Reply with quote

[quote="Q65A"]
Mr. Linsky wrote:
Bob,

In reference to the thirty five GM TDH 5106's numbered 821 to 840 and 856 to 871 delivered to Queens Transit in several orders between 1954 and 1959;

Do you happen to know what width they were?

The records of OMT don't specify this point, and I am trying to ascertain the widths of a Green Line order (#151 to 160) from the same group.



The TDH-5106' s were 96" wide. The corresponding GM air ride "wide-body" of the same era was the TDH-5105, which was the biggest selling model in the GM Old Look family.

Bob,

Thanks for the information - I have already found out from several sources that the 5106's were 96".

I can't account for the skipping by the PBL's of the 5105's except to say that Green Lines would have found the 102" jobs too wide for some of the narrow side streets that they had to negotiate.

I suppose that problem was either overcome or overlooked with the 5300 (New Looks) because most were 102"'s. wide!

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
etc.
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Mr RT




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope that wasn't the reason.

Salzberg of Queens-Nassau had ordered some Brilliners ... because he was able to get them cheeper then the PCCs (the PCC was tested in Brooklyn, the 1st production one went to BRT ... Brill wanted to get a foothold in NYC, so they offered Salzberg a very good deal).

Anyhow the Mayor, said oh no you don't. I don't want any more of those damm PCCs in my town, so go back & order some buses. So the Brilliner order bacame a AFC-Brill bus order.
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr RT wrote:
Nope that wasn't the reason.

Anyhow the Mayor, said oh no you don't. I don't want any more of those damm PCCs in my town, so go back & order some buses. So the Brilliner order bacame a AFC-Brill bus order.


Mr. RT,

That Mayor that you speak of (either Jimmy Walker or Fiorello LaGuardia - I'm not sure of which) was already under the spell of the 'GM, Yellow, Hertz, Firestone, Omnibus'! cartel and was hell bent on the replacement of all trolley lines in the city with buses!

In some ways, a very unfortunate turn of events! (except for us bus fans!).

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica & Arverne New York
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Q65A



Age: 66
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
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Location: Central NJ

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's how Motor Coach Age (Oct.-Nov. 1977) summarized the life of the ACF bus:

“The ACF bus represented the only major effort by a streetcar builder to capitalize on the shift to buses, though others did move into trolley-coaches. A well made and respected vehicle, it failed to earn a profit for its parent company for the first 10 years of its production, because of low sales volume, and after 1942, most of the earnings of ACF-Brill were derived from Hall-Scott engines and from defense work rather than buses. ACF made few notable innovations in bus design or engineering. The Hall-Scott motor was an original and early contribution to motor bus progress, but it was really made by Fageol; underfloor engine placement was not new when ACF announced the H-9 in 1932, but ACF perhaps brought that type of construction to its greatest heights.
ACF was the smallest of the five major producers of heavy-duty transit buses and faded from the scene quickly when conditions were changing in the 1950’s. There were many large cities where ACF buses never ran at all, though where they were used they were generally well liked. From 1926 to 1953, about 11,500 ACF and ACF-Brill buses were produced (plus 2100 Brill trolley-coaches), and for many of those years they constituted a significant part of the fleet for several sizable transit and intercity properties.
A survey of transit fleets at the end of 1950 showed the Eastern Massachusetts Street Railway (then still 14 percent owned by ACF-Brill) to be the largest ACF operator with 501 ACF buses in a fleet of 820. The MTA in Boston had 227 ACF’s at that time, and both B&W Lines and the Middlesex & Boston were principally ACF-equipped, so that “The Hub” was a center of ACF activity. Large fleets ran in Chicago (269), Philadelphia (244), Baltimore (165), Pittsburgh (149), Houston (134), San Diego (118) and Norfolk (108). ACF’s made up 100 percent of the roster on three properties: Conestoga Transportation Co., Queens Transit, and Cumberland & Westernport. They were in the majority on several medium-sized opertions: City Lines of West Virginia, Fitchburg & Leominster, Harrisburg Railways, Roanoke, Southern Penn, Triple Cities Traction, Valley Transportation, Wilkes-Barre and York Bus Co.
Within 10 years most of these operators had largely completed the dwitch to diesels, often second-hand in order to change over quickly, and the ACF bus had been eclipsed. The last ones reported to be still in service are three C-36’s on the Biddeford & Saco. Although the J.G. Brill “streetcar faction” won many of its internal battles with the ACF “motor bus group” over the years, in the end the ACF-Brill approach was not permanently successful. In spite of the logical efficiency of the centrally placed underfloor engine, the concept lost the race.”
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Cyberider




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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting info on the ACF buses, Bob. Didn't know Hall-Scott was tied in with them.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:21 pm    Post subject: 'Conestoga Transportation' Reply with quote

Bob,

Just a curiosity;

My 'Where Did The Old Green Line Buses Go?' piece records indicated that four 1950 TDH 4509's went to Conestoga Transportation Company.

Who exactly was Conestoga, and where did they operate? (I had never heard of them before I did the roster).

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
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Q65A



Age: 66
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
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Location: Central NJ

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 'Conestoga Transportation' Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
Bob,

Just a curiosity;

My 'Where Did The Old Green Line Buses Go?' piece records indicated that four 1950 TDH 4509's went to Conestoga Transportation Company.

Who exactly was Conestoga, and where did they operate? (I had never heard of them before I did the roster).

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
Hi Mr. L! I did a little Googling and found that Conestoga Transportation Co. was founded at Lancaster PA in 1931 as a motorized successor to a local streetcar/imterurban operator named Conestoga Traction Co. Conestoga Transportation apparently is still in business today as a charter bus operator. I think that the local transit provider in the Lancaster County area may be called Red Rose Transit, a carrier that was the subject of an article in the old Bus World magazine nearly 25 years ago (Red Rose was known for a fleet of Flx New Looks painted in a variety of different color schemes). I would bet that Red Rose assumed the local bus operations formerly held by Conestoga, who then turned to charter service instead; I do not have any data to support this theory, however.
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:16 am    Post subject: 'Conestoga' Reply with quote

Bob,

The Pennsylvania connection makes sense because two other TDH 4509's
went to Reading Bus Company in Reading (who had previously purchased all ten Green Line 4507's from 1949).

Both transactions could well have been brokered by the same agent.

Thanks for the info.

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
etc.
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:57 am    Post subject: 'Queens Nassau ACF Brill' Reply with quote

Pictured below is an ACF Brill factory brochure from sometime in the late thirties featuring a Queens Nassau Transit Lines, Inc. coach in its very familiar orange and cream livery.

These buses came equipped with the famous 'Hall Scott' pancack (underfloor) engines which must have been something else to repair!

The fleet number, from what I can make out, seems to be twenty something.

Unfortunately, I am not well versed in ACF Brill and can find no pre war statistics on their production.

Photo borrowed from e-bay for educational purposes only.

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica & Arverne, NY

576


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Mr RT




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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFC-Brill H-16-S = #1 thru 55 ... 1937
AFC-Brill 45-S = #80 thru 84 ... 1942
AFC-Brill C-44 = #101 thru 120 ... 1947
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